So my drummer whom thinks he understands more than he does about sound engineering and electronics won't shut up about my amp not having a direct out. We practice live in our facility but he wants to mix each instrument separately for a demo CD and claims that there is too much bleed through from other instruments into the mic he uses on my speaker. I am not a sound engineer but I told him hanging an SM57 directly down in front of my speaker isn't the way to do it. He refuses to use my Sennheiser e609 which is what I have always used in other bands and feel it's a better tool for the job.
I figure I will not waste my breath arguing with the drummer and install some resistors to pad down the output in order to send it to the mix board. I personally think this will sound horrible at the mix board and I feel it will effect the tone through the speaker by loading the amp differently now. Won't the resistors flatten out the response characteristic of the speaker? If I use large enough resistors where it isn't affecting the loading then I don't know if it will drive the mixer. I figure the mixer input impedance is <10k. Most I have seen are 1k-3k. I honestly care less about the mixer sound but I still want the sound through the speaker to be the same.
My amp is a custom built 12 watt push pull 6v6 tube amp. I was thinking of a resistive divider of 100 and 10 ohms, that should bring the 10v signal down to 1v or less. I was looking through my resistor drawer and I don't have anything less than 100 ohms so I don't want to order a 10 ohm resistor and pay for shipping or drive a half hour away to RadioShack if this is all for nothing and a waste of time. So if anyone has any experience doing this please share your results, it will be greatly appreciated. I am sure other tube amp users will find this information useful.
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Instead of 100/10, how about 10k over 1k, or even higher. Certainly 11k parallel your speaker will not affect the speaker tone in any way.
By its nature, this sort of circuit is unbalanced, so it will be a high Z output. If you want to feed it down a snake, then add a transformer after this.
A straight one sounds flat to me, flat as in lifeless, not flat as in EQ. Good ones add some speaker emulation.
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For LOTS more information or examples, google speaker line out and I'd skip right to the images, where there are schematics of all sorts of variations, both with and without emulation.
Enzo said: 10 ohms? If you want to make a line out on your speaker leads, it ought to take more than 10 ohms, but still keep the 100 ohm on the top resistor. Total resistance 110R. Instead of 100/10, how about 10k over 1k, or even higher. Certainly 11k parallel your speaker will not affect the speaker tone in any way. Click to expand...
Famousmockingbird said: I was thinking of a resistive divider of 100 and 10 ohms, that should bring the 10v signal down to 1v or less. Click to expand...
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I have the 100 ohm resistors but not the 10 ohm ones which is why I said I might have enough to parallel down to 10 ohms. The top resistor is still 100R, total resistance is 110R.
The issue I was pointing out with using a larger resistance to not load down the amp is a high source resistance to the mixer, too low a resistance and it loads the amp and changes it's characteristic tone.
In the end you answered my question in that it won't sound good. And thank you for the tip on the speaker emulator!! It seems that the people that do this and don't like the sound end up getting a speaker emulator. Or from watching a few videos online of my favorite guitarists, they have a box built around the speaker mic so it doesn't get stage noise bled into it.
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Yeah, I understood your resistors, I was just suggesting going for a higher resistance than 110 ohms, by a factor of 100 or more.
They include an emulator circuit (with in/out switch) if you want, and it plugs in series with the speaker, between it and amp chassis.
The speaker is a huge part of the amp sound so don't expect it to sound the same.when ever I used a di ( almost always on the bass not the guitar ( unless you want it without distortion) ). I would also record a track with a mic and mix the 2. I have a couple of suggestions. Use a di straight out of the guitar and then use an amp simulator when mixing or do the usual studio thing, over dubs. The only real way to get everything separate.
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Hi there, the sm57 is a very good instrument mic (or at least it was 20 years ago) its also very directional if he points it at the floor (ie hanging over the amp) lots of bleed can be expected. put it on a mic stand pointed at the speaker half way from the center to the outside edge, and in nice and close so gain is real high. that way when you turn it down bleed will be minimal.
I play harmonica and the speaker is a BIG part of the sound colour, i have tried speaker lvl di's and they just didn't sound the same.
Hi Arctic, I agree with you. That mic needs to be facing the speaker and not pointed down. I have not tried putting the mic inside the cab, I have seen people do this. Thanks I wouldn't have thought to try that. I have practice Thursday so we'll see how it goes. I put the resistive divider in but haven't had time to crank it up and see if the sound is okay. I used 110R. I did get some info on the mixer, input Z is 1.2k. They don't know what the sensitivity is.
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Hi, I used 100-10 divider, worked great. Sound from speaker appears to be the same to my ear. Sound through the direct out isn't as good as the speaker but works great for our practice.
Famousmockingbird said: Sound through the direct out isn't as good as the speaker but works great for our practice. Click to expand... Try adding a graphic EQ to the direct-out signal, and tweak to taste.
I think this can get you closer to the acoustic sound in front of the speaker, as you can mimic some of the characteristic frequency response peaks and troughs of the speaker (or, maybe, find a better-sounding EQ curve.)
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But it won't get you all the way, as speaker harmonic distortion won't be present in the direct signal, EQ or otherwise. Whether this is important or not has a lot to do with how you play - if you normally drive the speaker hard (loud), it's contribution will matter more to your sound.
(If you immobilize a speaker voice coil with wax or epoxy or whatever, it turns into a plain ordinary lossy inductor as far as it's impedance goes. Once immobilized, it behaves nothing like an actual speaker does, down in the bass frequency region where the guitar amp is supposedly influenced by the actual speaker impedance. So: buyer beware of expensive commercial attenuators that contain immobilized speaker motors as part of their mojo.)
I once made a voltage divider line out from the speaker output of a Fender Deluxe Reverb amp (about 15 watts output). I chose a capacitor to shunt high frequencies to ground, which should give a -6dB/octave roll-off. Since most guitar speakers' responses take a steep dive above 5kHz, I chose the cap's value to be -3dB at 5kHz. I used it a couple of times into people's PA systems, and much to my surprise it sounded very good! Now, this was for a 'clean' tube amp sound, not overdriven to smithereens. But it did get enough of the amp's warmth into the mix.
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You could use that low-tech direct signal going to one mixer channel in combination with a mic on the speaker into a different mixer channel. That way you could use the mic as a way to mix in some 'air' without introducing too much bleed from other instruments. That kind of thing is done all the time with acoustic bass players and acoustic guitars using piezo pickups. You use the piezo pickup to get the 'body' of the sound, but mix in some of the instrument's miked up sound to mellow out that pinched 'piezo sound.'
Famousmockingbird said: We practice live in our facility but he wants to mix each instrument separately for a demo CD and claims that there is too much bleed through from other instruments into the mic he uses on my speaker. I am
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